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STATES
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Transfer of
. .^x. ^Ji^ iNAiiONAL PARKS, FORESTS, •
AND LANDS
OFTHE
COMMITTEE ON
RESOURCES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
H.R. 2032
A BILL TO TRANSFER THE LANDS ADMINISTERED BY THE BUREAU
OF LAND MANAGEMENT TO THE STATE IN WHICH THE LANDS
ARE LOCATED
AUGUST 1, 1995—WASHINGTON, DC
Serial No. 104-32
Printed for the use ofthe Committee orfc^^oSfe
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WASHINGTON : 1995
ForsalebytheU.S.GovernmentPrintingOffice
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ISBN 0-16-047771-9
TRANSFER OF BLM-MANAGED LANDS TO THE
STATES
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Transfer of BLn-nm9e<l L^"^^ t° ^''- ^
,—.... x^o. uiN iNAiluNAL PAKKS, FORESTS,
AND LANDS
COMMITTEE ON
RESOURCES
HOUSE OP REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
ON
H.R. 2032
A BILL TO TRANSFER THE LANDS ADMINISTERED BY THE BUREAU
OF LAND MANAGEMENT TO THE STATE IN WHICH THE LANDS
ARE LOCATED
AUGUST 1, 1995—WASHINGTON, DC
Serial No. 104-^2
Printed for the use ofthe Committee orfc^sot
U.S. GOVERNMENTPRINTING'6t^m%.y/\/P//0,
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ForsalebytheU.S.GovernmentPrintingOffice ^^**.i;»^y£p^
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ISBN 0-16-047771-9
COMMITTEE ON RESOURCES
DONYOUNG,Alaska,Chairman
JAMESV. HANSEN,Utah GEORGEMILLER,CaUfornia
JIMSAXTON,NewJersey NICKJ. RAHALLU,WestVirginia
ELTONGALLEGLY, CaUfornia BRUCEF.VENTO, Minnesota
JOHNJ. DUNCAN,Jr.,Tennessee DALEE. KILDEE,Michigan
JOELHEFLEY, Colorado PATWILLIAMS,Montana
JOHNT. DOOLITTLE,California SAMGEJDENSON,Connecticut
WAYNEALLARD,Colorado BILLRICHARDSON,NewMexico
WAYNET. GILCHREST,Maryland PETERA. DeFAZIO,Oregon
KENCALVERT,California ENIF.H.FALEOMAVAEGA,American
RICHARDW. POMBO,California Samoa
PETERG.TORKILDSEN.Massachusetts TIMJOHNSON,SouthDakota
J.D. HAYWORTH,Arizona NEILABERCROMBIE,Hawaii
FRANKA. CREMEANS,Ohio GERRYE. STUDDS,Massachusetts
BARBARACUBIN,Wyoming SOLOMONP. ORTIZ,Texas
WESCOOLEY,Oregon OWENB. PICKETT,Virginia
HELENCHENOWETH,Idaho FRANKPALLONE,Jr.,NewJersey
LINDASMITH,Washington CALVINM. DOOLEY,CaUfornia
GEORGE P. RADANOVICH,CaUfornia CARLOSA. ROMERO-BARCELO, Puerto
WALTERB.JONES,Jr.,NorthCaroUna mco
WILLIAMM. (MAC)THORNBERRY,Texas MAURICE D. HINCHEY, NewYork
RICHARD(DOC)HASTINGS,Washington ROBERTA.UNDERWOOD, Guam
JACKMETCALF,Washington SAMFARR,CaUfornia
JAMESB. LONGLEY,Maine
JOHNB. SHADEGG,Arizona
JOHNE.ENSIGN,Nevada
W.J. (BILLY)TAUZm,Louisiana
DanielValKish,ChiefofStaff
ChristineKennedy,ChiefClerk/Administrator
JohnLawrence,DemocraticStaffDirector
DavidDye,ChiefCounsel
SUBCOMMITTEE ONNATIONALPARKS, FORESTS AND LANDS
JAMESV. HANSEN,Utah,Chainnan
JOHNJ. DUNCAN,Jr.,Tennessee BILLRICHARDSON,NewMexico
JOELHEFLEY,Colorado NICKJ. RAHALLII,WestVirginia
JOHNT. DOOLITTLE,CaUfornia BRUCEF.VENTO,Minnesota
WAYNEALLARD,Colorado DALEE. KILDEE,Michigan
RICHARDW. POMBO,CaUfornia PATWILLLVMS.Montana
PETERG.TORKILDSEN,Massachusetts ENIF.H. FALEOMAVAEGA,American
J.D. HAYWORTH,Arizona Samoa
BARBARACUBIN,Wyoming GERRYE. STUDDS,Massachusetts
WESCOOLEY,Oregon CARLOSA. ROMERO-BARCELO,Puerto
HELENCHENOWETH, Idaho Rico
LINDASMITH,Washington NATHANDEAL,Georgia
GEORGE P. RADANOVICH,CaUfornia MAURICED. HINCHEY,NewYork
JOHNB. SHADEGG,Arizona ROBERTA.UNDERWOOD,Guam
AllenFreemyer,StaffDirector/Counsel
SteveHodapp,ProfessionalStaff
(II)
CONTENTS
Page
HearingheldAugust1, 1995 1
TextofH.R.2032 71
BriefingpaperonH.R.2032 79
StatementsofMembers:
Hansen,Hon.JamesV.,aU.S. RepresentativefromUtahandChairman,
SubcommitteeonNationalParks,ForestsandLands 1
Richardson,Hon.Bill,aU.S.RepresentativefromNewMexico 8
Skeen,Hon.Joe,aU.S.RepresentativefromNewMexico 2
Stump,Hon.Bob,aU.S.RepresentativefromArizona 9
Thomas,Hon.Craig,aU.S.SenatorfromWyoming 5
Preparedstatement 8
Statementsofwitnesses:
Baughman,Mike,President,IntertechServicesCorporation 56
Preparedstatement 131
Bradley,Walter,LieutenantGovernorofNewMexico 4
Cohen, Bonnie, Assistant Secretary ofPolicy Management and Budget,
DepartmentofInterior 31
Preparedstatement 99
Hocker,Phil,President,MineralPolicyCenter 58
Preparedstatement 144
Jamison,Cy,formerDirector,BureauofLandManagement 30
Preparedstatement 96
Lea,George,President,PublicLandsFoundation 54
Preparedstatement 126
Leshy,John,Solicitor,DepartmentoftheInterior 37
Magagna,Jim,VicePresident,WildlifeManagementInstitute 49
Preparedstatement 113
Williamson,Lonnie,President,IntertechServiceCorporation 52
Preparedstatement 124
Additionalmaterialsupplied:
Bureau of Land Management, Department of Interior: Public Rewards
fromPublicLands 162
Chase, JoAnn K., Executive Director, National Congress of American
Indians:LetterofAugust1, 1995,toHon.JamesHansen 229
Chenoweth, Hon. Helen, aU.S. Representativefrom Idaho:Newsrelease
from Celia Boddington ofthe Bureau ofLand Management: BLM Re-
portCitesRewardsfromPublicLands 94
Dewey, Robert, and Tom Uniak, Defenders of WildUfe: Giving BLM
LandstotheStates:aLosingProposition 152
Gorte, Ross W., Congressional Research Service, Library of Congress:
Memo to House Committee on Resources on BLM Revenues and Ex-
penditures 83
Hassell, M. Jean, Arizona Land Commissioner: Letter ofJvdy 28, 1995,
toHon.JamesHansen 226
Powell, Ray, Commissioner ofPublic Lands, New Mexico: The Proposed
DivestitureofPublicLands 159
Stewart, Ted, Executive Director, State ofUtah Department ofNatural
Resources:LetterofJuly31, 1995,toHon.JamesHansen 230
(III)
TRANSFER OF BLM-MANAGED LANDS TO THE
STATES
TUESDAY, AUGUST 1, 1995
House of REPRESE^^^ATIVES, Subcommittee on Na-
tional Parks, Forests and Lands, Committee on
Resources,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in room
1334, Longworth House Building, Hon. James V. Hansen [chair-
man ofthe subcommittee] presiding.
HON.JAMESV. HANSEN,AU.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROMUTAH
AND CHAHIMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL PARKS,
FORESTSANDLANDS
Mr. Hansen. The Subcommittee on National Parks, Forests and
Lands convenes to consider H.R. 2032 which would provide for the
transfer oflands managed by the Bureau ofLand Management to
the States. H.R, 2032 grows out ofthe continual frustrations expe-
rienced by State and local governments who struggle to provide
sound futures for their citizens but find it impossible because they
have little orno control overtheirlands.
This is a not a recent difficulty; the western States have faced
the impossibilityofcontrollingtheirown destinyfordecades.
This Administration has intensified the feelings ofthe people in
the West, and the BLM can blame themselves for being on the
choppingblock.
People who live, work and play on these public lands want the
best forthem. BLM is not responsible forthe heritage ofourpublic
lands, it is the rancher who improves the range, the logger and
miner who provide vital resources to our economies, the State who
manages our wildlife, the county who provides law enforcement,
emergency services and maintains our roads, the families that
recreate on these lands, and the thousands of people who act as
volunteer stewards who created the heritage of our public lands.
H.R. 2032 is not about giving this heritage away but is about our
abilityto guarantee this heritageforfutureAmericans.
Since 1782 this Nation has disposed of 1.1 billion acres ofpublic
lands. More recently, this Nation took aggressive steps to settle the
Midwest and far West. Whether it was the Homestead Act, the
Timber Culture Act, the Timber and Stone Act, the Desert Land
Act and the numerous other land disposal policies, this country
soughtto getthese lands in the hands ofthe people.
And we were highly successful. The entire East, Midwest and
South were given their lands and were given the ability to control
(1)
their futures. The West simply wants our chance to decide for our-
selvesv.'hat isbestforthepeoplewhousethese lands.
We have come a long way since the Homestead Act, and we un-
derstand how best to manage our lands. It is my every intention
that these lands remain public because that is their highest and
best use. However, theAdministration and other environmental in-
terests make the assumption that it is only the Federal Govern-
ment who can manage lands for the public, that only the Federal
Government can maintain access for recreation, or that subsidies
to the BLM to maintain their ineffective and isolated management
policies is somethingthe Stateswouldbefoolish to give up.
I can promiseyouthatpeople oftheWestwillgladly letyou keep
your subsidies, keep all ofthe so-called public rewards and permit
the governments closesttothe people to manage the people's lands.
It is time Congress returned to trusting the respective States, to
putting power in the individual and to restore the dream ofliberty
in the rural West. I thank our witnesses for appearing before the
subcommittee and lookforwardtothetestimony.
Today we have a very interesting group ofthree panels, but we
will start with our colleague from New Mexico, Joe Skeen who will
be our lead-off witness. Senator Craig Thomas from Wyoming is
also sponsoring this identical bill, and he has a problem right now,
we are given to imderstand that he will walk in in a few minutes,
and we will turn to him andthen we will start with the others. So,
Congress Joe Skeen, it is always a privilege to have you here, and
we will turn thetimetoyou, sir.
STATEMENTOFHONF.RJOOMENSEKEWEMNE,XAIUC.OS.REPRESENTATIVE
Mr. Skeen. Well, thankyouverymuch, Mr. Chairman and mem-
bers of the committee. It is a delight to be here this morning. As
a matter offact, I consider this to be a very historic day, because
personally I waited a longtime to appearbefore this subcommittee
and discuss this legislation which is H.R. 2032, and I appreciate
having as cosponsor the Chairman of this Committee. It sure
makes access aloteasier.
This bill will turn the management functions ofBureau ofLand
Management lands to these western States that we have been dis-
cussing.
H.R. 2032, ofwhich I am an original cosponsor, is revolutionary
and long overdue. The 13 western States and New Mexico in par-
ticular, have witnessed BLM's aggressive tendency to overregulate,
and its massive proliferation and growth in personnel since the
1950's.
I believe that transferring BLM lands to the States is a common
sense approach to bringing public management to these areas clos-
erto the people who Uve nearthese lands, work on them, use them
for recreation. This is in stark contrast to those who believe that
BLM lands must remain in Federal hands in order to preserve the
public's interest.
In my opinion, the State ofNew Mexico would be much more re-
sponsive to industry, recreation £ind environmental interests, just
as every other State east ofthe 30-inch rainfall belt handles theirs
today. Why shouldwebetreated anydifferently?
3
Currently, within New Mexico's boundaries, BLM controls ap-
proximately three times more land than the New Mexico State
Land Office, but it employs approximately nine times more employ-
ees. This is clearly an example ofan overstuffed budget and an in-
abilityofourFederal bureaucracyto do an efficientjob.
Ifyou give credence to the environmental groups' assertion that
the West is being destroyed by ranchers, miners, and timber com-
panies even with BLM's ever-expanding budgets, you might con-
clude that the BLM is not an effective agency. And I believe that
it is time to try a new management prescription, and H.R. 2032 is
a step in the right direction.
This bill also saves the taxpayers millions of dollars by doing
away with any so-called subsidy for public lands ranchers and
eliminating most ofthe BLM budget. H.R. 2032 is a very efficient
and cost-effective approachtomanagingpubliclands.
I firmly believe it is one ofthe best and most efficient methods
ofreducing the Federal budget while increasing the States' rights.
BLM spends approximately $400 million more than it retains
from royalties, fees and receipts from timber, grazing and energy
development nationwide. On the other hand, BLM retains approxi-
mately $100 million more than it spends to manage lands in New
Mexico.
Therefore, New Mexico producers are subsidizing the Federal
Government's activities in other States. Just like the eastern
States, New Mexico should be managing these lands and allowed
to keep any money generated from activities within its boundaries.
H.R. 2032 requires the Secretary ofthe Interior to offer all BLM
lands within each State to the Governor and the State legislature
whomay acceptorrejectthe offer.
Once a State accepts the lands, they would be transferred to the
State after a ten-year period to allow for the transition. All valid
existingrights would continue tobe recognized.
Valid existing leases and permits on lands to be transferred
would be honored forthe term ofthe current agreements and man-
aged under their current terms and conditions. Designated wilder-
ness areas will be managed by the State as wilderness and in ac-
cordance with the requirements specified by the Wilderness Act of
1964.
Mr. Chairman, there is none more distinguished a gentleman
that I know of than the State of New Mexico's Lieutenant Gov-
ernor, Walter Bradley, who is with me this morning and will
present testimony in very strong support ofH.R. 2032. He will also
give you some idea about whether or not they would be willing to
acceptthe BLM lands under the conditions set forth in this legisla-
tion.
I believe the State of New Mexico is leading the way in the
States' efforts to take back public lands managed by the Federal
Government. New Mexico and other western States should be
treated like every State eastofthe 30-inchrainfallbelt.
I thankyou for this opportunity to testify, and I would entertain
any questions that you or other members of the Committee may
have.
Mr. Hansen. Thank you. Representative Skeen, We appreciate
your excellent testimony. We are honored to have with us Walter
D. Bradley, Lieutenant Governor ofthe State ofUtah. It is a privi-
lege to haveyouwithus. Wewillturnthe timetoyou, sir.
STATEMENTOFWALTERBRADLEY,LIEUTENANTGOVERNOR
OFNEWMEXICO
Mr. Bradley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members ofthe Com-
mittee. I want to thankyou again for allowing me to appear before
you today to speak in favor of House Resolution 2032. The State
ofNew Mexico is the fifth largest State in land mass in the United
States totalingjust under 78 million acres ofland. Our population
ofabout 1.6 million people is spread out in pockets all over a State
that is rich in natural resources.
We are primarily an agriculture and mineral State with many
recreational/tourist areas and in November 1994's election, I be-
lieve that the citizens ofNew Mexico and the Nation sent a strong
and loud message to government. Fed up with too much govern-
ment regulation, they feel government has become overly intrusive
notonlyin theirbusinesshvesbuttheirpersonal lives as well.
Many ofour citizens view government as a big brother who once
extended ahelpinghandbutnowresorts to strong-armingthe little
ones. Government has gone from being a servant to being a dic-
tator.
The general feeling of the people is that Washington can't pos-
sibly know how best to help them with the running oftheir daily
businesses and personal lives. Theyfeel the best government is the
one closest to them. One they can actively participate in rather
than one in which they have to rely on the participation ofothers.
In the State ofNew Mexico, approximately one-third ofour land
is under Federal management. We have oil, gas, coal, C02, potash,
sodium, lumber, grazing and recreational royalties and fees on
these lands.
Yet despite our role as the State where these products come
from, we have direct influence on neither the negotiations ofthese
contracts northe disbursementofroyalties.
Forgive me, but having the Federal Government dictate a blan-
ket management program to 50 diverse States is a bit like buying
the same size shoe for everyone in your family. Simply put, it is
not always thebestfit.
With the advent ofthe various acts passed by the U.S. Congress
that affect land use, the State has no direct influence in the forma-
tion ofregulations to implement these acts, not to mention the fact
that enforcement is rarely coordinated with our law enforcement
agencies. This causes great hardship on our citizens while at the
same time creating a sense ofisolatedfrustration thatourinterests
and concerns are notbeingconsidered.
At a time when the Federal Government is working to bring its
budget under control and is looking to eliminate duplication and
become efficient, itonlymakes senseto include the States.
We have in the State of New Mexico a department which per-
forms many ofthe same functions as the Bureau ofLand Manage-
ment. We can, we believe, manage the Federal land and preserve
the intent of the Federal law for less taxpayer money and with
greater benefits to the citizens. We in New Mexico think a better
management system will be createdby a relationship between Fed-
